Talk:Aisha

Source for aidha birthdate

i don't see any sources for aisha being born in 614 in the article 197.48.252.182 (talk) 07:59, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

See the first sentence in the section titled "Early life". There are two sources cited. ~Anachronist (talk) 08:06, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

That's because it's fake. If you read Sunna you'll find this tradition Arabs had where they started counting their age after puberty(some examples would be like in the seera where Ali was 10 approximately during hijra which is relatively impossible -because he was close to this age when Muhammad first got the revelation-, same goes for a sahabi that said he used to lead prayer when he was 7yo).

Another point is the fact that Aisha was 10 years younger than her sister Asma who was 27 during hijra, making Aisha's age 17 at hijra and 18-19 the following year when she consummated the marriage. 77.205.21.218 (talk) 11:46, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

It is not fake. Babysharkboss2 was here!! ^{Dr. Wu is NOT a Doctor!} 03:58, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Aisha's Age

The age for Aisha doesn't exactly seem right. We know from sources of Islamic times (Sahih al-Bukhari 2664) that those under the age of 15 weren't allowed to even be within the presence of the battlefield, yet we see Aisha during Battle of Uhud (where she's either supposedly 11 or 12) serving as a field medic and delivering large quantities of water to soldiers (Sahih al-Bukhari 2880).

The statement that claims that Aisha was either 6 or 9 during the time of marriage is Sahih al-Bukhari 5134. The problem starts with the fact that this particular Hadith can be traced back to one narrator called Hishām ibn ʿUrwa. He narrated this Hadith when he was in Iraq, between the years 754 and 765 CE. Not only would this put the circulation of this report almost a century and a half after the events it purports to describe, but it would also mean that Hishām dropped this tale in the altogether different environment of Iraq, almost 1,000 miles away from the Arabian city of Medina (where the marriage would have taken place). Al-Bukhari, Muslim, and others have narrated this Hadith through the chain of Hisham from his father Urwah from Aisha. We can consider the possibility that Urwah is the source of the original narration, and then his son Hisham added more details and pushed Aisha's age number lower to 6 and 9. It is possible that Hishām could not remember the true marital age of Aisha due to bad memory in his old age when he was in Iraq. According to a number of muḥaddithūn (traditionists), most notably Ibn Ḥajar (852/1449) and al-Dhahabī (748/1348), Hishām ibn ʿUrwa was not a trustworthy narrator in his old age in Iraq.

There's also more logical convictions against this; such as Aisha being the height to Muhammad's shoulders. It should be noted that Muhammad was stated to be the "perfect height," neither too tall or too short. As a result, the fact a 6 year old could achieve anything close to that height is illogical.

There's also Sahih al-Bukhari 2297, which states that Aisha was able to remember the expedition to Ethiopia by Abu Bakr. Sahih al-Bukhari 476 also repeats the same thing. Age of intelligence likely means around 10, and this would line up with the other hadiths such as Battle of Uhud. This expedition took place in 615 CE. If Aisha was 6 when she married Muhammad, she wouldn't be alive in 615 CE. If she was 9, she'd be one year old. Regardless of interpretation, this still makes this hadith literally illogical. If Aisha was born in 605 CE, that'd make her 10 when the expedition happened, and 18 when marrying Muhammad, and 20 during the Battle of Uhud.

"While I was a young girl (jariyah in arabic) of playing age, the following Verse was revealed in Mecca to Muhammad: 'Nay! But the Hour is their appointed time (for their full recompense), and the Hour will be more grievous and more bitter.' (54.46)" (Sahih al-Bukhari 4993)., Surah 54 of the Quran was revealed around 4 to 5 years after the first revelation to the Prophet (610 CE) making it around 614 - 615. Again, with the current age listed, Aisha being a young girl let alone remembering the Surah being revealed is literally impossible. EgyptianNationalist (talk) 05:41, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

All of the above constitutes original research and synthesis of a conclusion from sources, ending with an editorial comment resembling an argument from personal incredulity. The sources mentioned are primary sources, which we cannot use for presenting historical facts. None of the above is actionable for changing what the article already says on the subject of Aisha's age.

This page isn't a forum for discussion of a topic, it's for suggesting improvements to the article, and you have not done so. As stated in the section immediately above, "Wikipedia is not interested in editors' interpretation of primary sources." If you want to propose an improvement to the article, you're going to have to cite secondary mainstream scholarly sources. ~Anachronist (talk) 07:00, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

The current age listed for Aisha uses a primary source (Sahih al-Bukhari 5134), however said hadith is untenable due to the existence of other hadiths. The ending part is also not "personal incredulity", rather objective fact. She's either not alive (614) or she's the age of one (613), and you can only recall events starting from around the age of 3-4 years old.

This is also just not interpretive. These are multiple sources that contradict the original (which was already made by an inconsistent and unreliable narrator) by multiple other people. EgyptianNationalist (talk) 19:33, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

The section about Aisha's age cites multiple independent sources that are not primary. Again, your own personal interpretations are irrelevant, and you have no clue what I can recall. Are you going to propose a change that is supported by citations to reliable scholarly sources, or not? Again, this isn't a forum for discussing the topic, this page is for discussing specific article improvements, and you aren't doing that. ~Anachronist (talk) 01:53, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

I'll admit. I'm intrigued. While currently unsupported here, there are details cropping up here that do indeed cast significant doubt, by means of pure common sense, on the traditional Islamic interpretation – enough that I'm wondering if there aren't reliable sources out there somewhere saying the same. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:35, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

I find it intriguing too. In the same way that biblical contradictions are included in the Bible article only if scholars discuss them, the disagreements between details described above need to be identified by scholars before we mention them in this article. ~Anachronist (talk) 11:36, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

THE AGE of AISHA is not CORRECT!!!

1. She accepted Quran at year 610 when she was 6 years old, meaning she was BORN at 604/605 not 614.

2. Her sister Asmma is 10 years older than Aisha. At the first year oh Hijra, 622 Asmma was 27 years old. It means Aisha was 17-18. One year after Hijra, Aisha and Mohammed consumed the marriage. It means aisha was 18-19 years old.

4. Asmma was born at 595, 10 YEARS before Aisha's birth. Means Aisha was born at 605. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AnaEJ26 (talk • contribs) 08:54, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles are based on what reliable secondary sources say. In the case on contentious topics like this one, these need to be high quality scholarly sources. Primary sources can be cited for statements of fact, but any interpretation of them has to be by high quality scholarly sources. If there are different points of view, these must be explained proportionately. See Wikipedia:List of policies#Content.-- Toddy1 (talk) 10:24, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 October 2024

I want to edit Aisha"s age as to when she got married to prophet Muhammad. It is stated that she was 6 and consummation was at which was contested many times. Follwoing is the reason for this In 1999, in a magazine called The Minaret, out of California, a scholarly paper appeared. Its title was, "Was Ayesha a six-year old bride?" The author was Dr. T.O.Shanavas, a physician in the US.

The same paper was published again in the July/August 2002 issue of The Minaret. Unfortunately the magazine is no longer being published. But fortunately I have, in my hand, a photocopy of that article. It is a bit dog-eared, but perfectly readable.

The article is, without a doubt, the best researched paper on this issue by any Muslim scholar or author that I have come across. The paper is too lengthy (4 pages of fine print) for me to reproduce it here. While all of what I have written below is based on Dr. Shanavas's article, I have had to rearrange and modify his text to fit everything in this answer.

Some Pertinent dates:

pre-610 CE: Pre-Islamic age 610 CE: First Revelation 610 CE: AbuBakr accepts Islam 613 CE: The Prophet begins preaching publically 615 CE: Emigration of some Muslims to Abyssenia 616 CE: Umar bin al Khattab accepts Islam 620 CE: Generally accepted engagement of Ayesha to the Prophet 622 CE Hijra (emigration to Medina) 623/624 Ayesha begins living with the Prophet Most of the narratives concerning this issue printed in the books of Hadith are reported by one Hisham ibn Urwah. (A single source for ALL - Ideally, the Muslims look for two, three or four sources for reliable narrations)

It is strange that no one from Medina has reported on this issue where Hisham lived the first 71 years of his life, and where his pupils included well-respected people like Malik ibn Anas.

After age 71 Hisham moved to Iraq. Tehzibu'l-Tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh)reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah, his (Hisham's) narratives are acceptable except when he narrated after moving to Iraq." It is reported that Malik ibn Anas, Hisham's own pupil in Medina, also objected to Hisham's narrative from Iraq.

My note: Almost every report of Ayesha's young age goes back to Hisham bin Urwa from the time when he was old and possibly senile. Secondly, even his old pupils, like Malik ibn Anas rejected his narration of that period. Likewise in the 15th century many scholars rejected the narrations of Hisham from his old age.

Al-Tabari says, "All four of Abu Bakr's children were born of his two wives during the Pre-Islamic period" (Tarikh'l umam wa'l-mamlu'k, Al Tabari (died 922), Vol 4, p.50, Arabic Dara'l-fikr, Beirut, 1979)

Tabari also states that Ayesha was born in the period of Jahiliya (Pre-Islamic period) (In other words in 610 CE or earlier) Even if she was born in 610, she would be 14 years old when she began living with the Prophet. Amazingly, Tabari in a different place then goes and quotes Hisham ibn Urwah that Ayesha was nine when she started living with the Prophet!!! (Not a very scholarly work, is it?)

There are multiple accounts of Ayesha participating in the battles of Badr and Uhad. At the same time, Bukhari (in Kitabul Maghazi, Bab Ghazwa-i-Khandaq) narrates, "Ibn-i-Umar states that the Prophet did not allow me to participate in Uhad because at the time I was 14 years old. But on the day of Khandaq (next battle), when I was 15, the Prophet allowed me to participate.

Ayesha's participation in battles of Badr and Uhad clearly indicates that she was not 9 year old, but at least 15. Dr. Shanavas adds, "Women used to accompany men to the battlefield to help them, not to be a burden on them."

Sura Qamar: Ayesha is reported to have said that she was a young girl (jariyah in Arabic) when sura Qamar was revealed. Sura Qamar was revealed eight years before Hijra, in 614 CE. If Ayesha started living with the Prophet at age 9 in 623 CE, she should have been a new born (sibyah in Arabic) when Sura Qamar was revealed, not a jariyah (a young girl). assumed to be somewhere between 6-13 year old. That would suggest Ayesha's age at the time of marriage to be 14-21 years.

Guidance from Qur'an: There are no verses that spell out age of marriage in number 0f years, which is understandable because both boys and girls reach maturity at widely different ages. But Qur'an 4:5-6 talking about orphaned children who are now under the protection of guardian says "..... and maintain them out of it (the orphan's property), clothe them and give them good education. And test them until they reach the age of marriage. Then if you find in them maturity of intellect, make over them their property."

Dr. Shanavas says: In the matter of children who lost a parent, a Muslim (guardian) is ordered to 1. feed them, 2. clothe them, 3.educate them, and 4. test them for maturity "until the age of marriage" before entrusting them with the management of finances. Here the Qur'anic verse demands meticulous proof of their intellectual and physical maturity by objective test results before the age of marriage in order to entrust their property to them, In the light of this verse no responsible Muslim would hand over financial management to a seven or nine year old girl. ...... hence she cannot be intellectually or physically fit for marriage.

Finally, a woman (not her daddy or mommy) must be consulted and must agree in order to make the marriage valid. Dr. Shanavas says: By any stretch of the imagination, the permission given by an immature seven year old girl cannot be valid authorization for marriage. Saadlahori1 (talk) 18:46, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 18:51, 29 October 2024 (UTC)